Add preset for `climbing=route_bottom` #1590

zbycz · 2025-06-07T11:50:07Z

Description, Motivation & Context

Hi, here is my another take on adding climbing features to iD. This time I focused only on what is already prevalent in OSM. Last year I proposed a PR (#1113) which stalled - perhaps it was too large, or perhaps I add too much of unused stuff from OSM wiki.

In this first PR, I would like to add only climbing=route_bottom node preset + its fields.

Preset: Climbing Route Start (`climbing=route_bottom`)

This tag is used to denote the position of the start of the climbing route. It is usually the most important to have in GPS.
This node usually holds all the information about the upcoming route. See picture for clarification.
There is a possible evolution, where node can be replace by way with climbing=route, but it is not as usual in OSM DB yet.

Linked fields from the preset

I wrote a script which measured all the tag combinations - see results here. I propose to add only fields which are used more often and are already established on the OSM wiki.

count	tag	label	description
15582	`name=*`
12631	`climbing:grade:uiaa=*`	Grade (UIAA)	Different classification scales - typically used in different countries
911	`climbing:grade:french=*`	Grade (French)
757	`climbing:grade:saxon=*`	Grade (Saxon)
145	`climbing:grade:yds_class=*`	Grade (YDS)	Yosemite Decimal System - not that prevalent, but important
8866	`website=*`
2323	`climbing:length=#`	Length (m)	Length of the upcoming route - useful to have long enough rope
1661	`climbing:sport=yes`	Sport climbing	Type of climbing, where the route is secured by pre-drilled bolts (wikipedia)
1007	`climbing:trad=yes`	Traditional climbing	Type of climbing, where climber has to place their own protection (wikipedia)
723	`climbing:bolts=#`	Number of Bolts	Number of the pre-drilled bolts in the upcoming route.
284	`description=*`

Related issues

Presets for climbing features #31

Links and data

Relevant OSM Wiki links:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Climbing

Relevant tag usage stats:

15 582 nodes - https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/climbing=route_bottom

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## Test-Documentation

### Preview links & Sidebar Screenshots

<!-- Use the preview to find examples, select the feature in question and **copy this link here**.
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https://github.com/openstreetmap/id-tagging-schema/actions/runs/15507530009/job/43664205758?pr=1590

github-actions · 2025-06-07T11:54:35Z

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zbycz · 2025-06-07T12:41:12Z

First Test-Documentation before the code review

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Info-`i`

I added the wikibase entry, but it doesn't show. Instead it links to "key:climbing" (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q3036) How to link this new one https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q23038 ?

Wording

American English - should be the same
name, aliases (if present) use Title Case
terms (if present) use lower case, sorted A-Z

harahu · 2025-06-08T12:55:14Z

Haha, great minds think alike. I just published a draft PR doing some of the same work you have done here: #1591

I suggest we try to merge yours first, but I'd really like to get the climbing=route as a way preset in, because that's my preferred way of mapping routes. I'm fine with keeping that out of this PR, though.

tordans

Thanks for breaking down the big PR. Its much easier to review this way.
I left some comments on improvements.

In general, it would be great if you could take this opportunity and check if the Wiki pages are beginner friendly already. I thing they need to be improved a bit.

When I looked at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dclimbing I did not find any mention of the fields here. The fact that there is https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Climbing is only visible if users actually read line by line. And only on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Climbing are there more details on what we are doing here.

Adding some of the fields here as redirects will help. But also adding some more links and callouts to the pages will help.
The German page is also bigger than the english page which I always find weird for something that is international https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:sport%3Dclimbing (and not scoped to one country in the presets here).

data/fields/climbing/bolts.json

data/fields/climbing/length.json

data/fields/climbing/sport.json

data/fields/climbing/trad.json

tordans · 2025-06-09T05:23:55Z

data/fields/climbing/sport.json

+{
+    "key": "climbing:sport",
+    "type": "check",
+    "label": "Sport climbing"


Do users really understand that this is "with bolts" where the other is "bring your own"? Can we make this part of the label without making it wrong in some cases…?

Eg. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportklettern says "bouldern" is also sport climbing?

Users will understand. Bouldering occasionally gets lumped under sport climbing for political reasons related to "sport climbing" being an Olympic sport. There may be some linguistic differences too, but most Germans I know also make a distinction between the two.

I explored this topic little bit more, and usually the hypernym Rock climbing, consists of Sport climbing (with bolts+rope), Bouldering (shorter, without bolts), etc. The wikipedia states it clearly.

It seems the Olympics really added some confusion here.

To make it clearer, I added a bracket: Sport climbing (bolted climbing) – specifically because we don't have the bouldering option (yet), so begginers could try to fit it wrongly. What do you think?

tordans · 2025-06-09T05:27:38Z

data/presets/climbing/route_bottom.json

+    "fields": [
+        "name"
+    ],
+    "moreFields": [
+        "climbing/grade/uiaa",
+        "climbing/grade/french",
+        "climbing/grade/saxon",
+        "climbing/grade/yds_class",
+        "website",
+        "climbing/length",
+        "climbing/sport",
+        "climbing/trad",
+        "climbing/bolts",
+        "description"
+    ],


Suggested change

"fields": [

"name"

],

"moreFields": [

"climbing/grade/uiaa",

"climbing/grade/french",

"climbing/grade/saxon",

"climbing/grade/yds_class",

"website",

"climbing/length",

"climbing/sport",

"climbing/trad",

"climbing/bolts",

"description"

],

"fields": [

"name",

"climbing/sport",

"climbing/trad",

"climbing/bolts",

],

"moreFields": [

"climbing/grade/uiaa",

"climbing/grade/french",

"climbing/grade/saxon",

"climbing/grade/yds_class",

"website",

"climbing/length",

"description"

],

Does every route have a name? Having the name field that prominent will result in users adding it as a free form field. What is the recommended name for a route?

Is there some way to promote a source in this schema? Like "From the signs at the wall" or "From the book XY"?

I think some fields should be fields. Aren't sport and trad fields we always want to be filled? (With bolts being conditional, see above)

About the name: Looking at a few examples https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/25II the data looks good ATM. That might change, however, once we promote it to less experienced users.

Most routes have a name. Rarely there is a sign. More often books, online guides, word of mouth.

Yes, usually routes have names - I have never heard about a route without name. But when is someone mapping in the field – they could probably see there is a bolted route, but the name is not usually written there. It is maintained by the local climbing organization, usually appears in printed guides, and sometimes there is a signboard nearby with the names, difficulties and a map (topo).

I added the suggested fields to fields property.

New route looks like this, which is probably fine - the info buttons shows the additional clarification:

tordans · 2025-06-09T05:38:42Z

data/fields/climbing/grade/french.json

@@ -0,0 +1,6 @@
+{
+    "key": "climbing:grade:french",
+    "type": "text",


I wonder if we should try to improve the data validation aspects for those grade fields.
type:text is the most open field which provides no validation.
However, the values are well defined, eg. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/climbing%3Agrade%3Afrench#values

What are our options?

We could make it an combo field with strings and either list all or rely on taginfo to fill the missing (see autosuggest)

If there where a good website that we can link to, we could make it an identifier field and use the pattern to validate the input via Regex. The website should be something like a generic page that handles the input as search param, maybe something that shows the value in different grades?

This applies to all 3 grade fields.

I think we should at least do the combo so users are guided to well structures data.

Grades are very diverse. French grades might benefit from a combo, but other grades get more complicated.

I took the values from the grading table on wiki, and made them into a combo field. I took only the basic ones (without slash), i think it is a good start for the users to select, and of course it allows users to enter their own value, if they prefer.

data/presets/climbing/route_bottom.json

tordans · 2025-06-09T06:08:13Z

I added the wikibase entry, but it doesn't show. Instead it links to "key:climbing" (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q3036) How to link this new one https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q23038 ?

You have to add a description in the data item table, eg https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q8221

zbycz · 2025-06-10T13:57:58Z

@tordans - thanks for a comprehensive review. I agree that this is a good oportunity to update the wiki. I will work on it this week. Once it is visible on wiki, i will respond to the comments with links.

ad link to Q230238) i dont understand your comment - this item has the label specified, but iD still ignores the dataitem altogether. It seems to only fetch a wiki page, not the item. Maybe it gets fixed after i create the route_bottom page? or do i have to link it to the item?

tordans · 2025-06-11T08:35:07Z

ad link to Q230238) i dont understand your comment - this item has the label specified, but iD still ignores the dataitem altogether. It seems to only fetch a wiki page, not the item. Maybe it gets fixed after i create the route_bottom page? or do i have to link it to the item?

I don't know. I asked about it in https://osmus.slack.com/archives/CBK3JLUJU/p1749630713467699 just now.

1ec5 · 2025-06-12T01:54:29Z

I made a few changes to the item that should help, though I haven’t tested them in iD yet:

The label in English should be the key=value identifier, because this is literally the tag being documented rather than a particular preset based on it. (There’s an ongoing discussion about whether that should remain the case.)
The documentation wiki pages (P31) statement’s value should be the article title corresponding to the raw Tag:key=value format, e.g., “Tag:climbing=route_bottom”. This is where you’d also link to translations of the article.
Use the Set item sitelink link in the sidebar toolbox to explicitly associate the item with the “Tag:climbing=route_bottom” article. This is what iD is querying for.

You can find more information on the expected format in this help article. It’s kind of dense and easy to miss important steps there, but hopefully you can use this item as an example in the future. This case is also a little more awkward than usual because there isn’t a dedicated article about this tag yet, only a redirect to a different article. I’d encourage you write a full-fledged article about the tag at some point for discoverability.

zbycz · 2025-06-13T14:04:33Z

@1ec5 - thanks, that helped! I have updated the documentation in this repo - PR #1600 . I didn't know that wiki sitelink is a thing, so i was missing this in my thought model 🙂

zbycz · 2025-06-15T09:54:48Z

In general, it would be great if you could take this opportunity and check if the Wiki pages are beginner friendly already. I thing they need to be improved a bit.

When I looked at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dclimbing I did not find any mention of the fields here. The fact that there is https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Climbing is only visible if users actually read line by line. And only on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Climbing are there more details on what we are doing here.

Adding some of the fields here as redirects will help. But also adding some more links and callouts to the pages will help. The German page is also bigger than the english page which I always find weird for something that is international https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:sport%3Dclimbing (and not scoped to one country in the presets here).

I changed this on the wiki + created correct wikitiems to all of these pages:

added page for https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:climbing%3Droute_bottom - listed all common values and some more from the Climbing page.
all keys/tags from the route_bottom page are created:
i removed the misleading table with leisure=sport_center on the https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dclimbing page, and added what tags is used for differentiating among the climbing features. The details are left on the large Climbing page. In german the sport=climbing page basically just contains what is in english on the Climbing page. I don't see an issue with that.
I added a category https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Climbing

zbycz · 2025-06-15T10:30:03Z

@tordans - I made new screenshots here:

Test-documentation screenshots after codereview changes no.1

Test-Documentation

Preview links & Sidebar Screenshots

1	2
https://pr-1590--ideditor-presets-preview.netlify.app/id/dist/#id=n12755685631	https://pr-1590--ideditor-presets-preview.netlify.app/id/dist/#id=n12756799896

3	4
https://pr-1590--ideditor-presets-preview.netlify.app/id/dist/#id=n12862541335	https://pr-1590--ideditor-presets-preview.netlify.app/id/dist/#id=n1775360425

5	6
https://pr-1590--ideditor-presets-preview.netlify.app/id/dist/#id=n7118311586	https://pr-1590--ideditor-presets-preview.netlify.app/id/dist/#id=n7118515386

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1	2

Wording

American English - should be the same
name, aliases (if present) use Title Case
terms (if present) use lower case, sorted A-Z

data/fields/climbing/grade/yds_class.json

tordans

I think this is ready to be merged now.
I changed the combo fields a bit with my last two commits. The Grade (Saxon) requires the caseSensitive=true flag. And with explicit autosuggest=off the options are sorted just as they are specified in the file and also no network request is done.

To me, this looks good. Shall we merge?

zbycz · 2025-06-16T07:40:22Z

Perfect! I also noticed the slightly unordered lists by the taginfo and didn't know it is possible to turn it off 👍

Lets roll it 🙂

zbycz added 2 commits June 7, 2025 12:47

Add preset for climbing=route_bottom

143a120

remove field ele - non-compatible type

dec88c2

https://github.com/openstreetmap/id-tagging-schema/actions/runs/15507530009/job/43664205758?pr=1590

zbycz mentioned this pull request Jun 7, 2025

Add climbing presets + fields #1113

Closed

add yds_class as it is used in many examples

6995169

tordans requested changes Jun 9, 2025

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tordans mentioned this pull request Jun 9, 2025

Add climbing features #1591

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harahu mentioned this pull request Jun 12, 2025

Add preset for climbing=route point, way and relation #1598

Merged

zbycz mentioned this pull request Jun 13, 2025

Update CONTRIBUTING.md about wiki items and wiki links #1600

Open

zbycz added 7 commits June 13, 2025 19:54

change grades to combo

8b58aa2

change Length (Meters)

6c16c13

add terms

02edb41

prettier

d83c730

add prerequisite tag "climbing:sport=yes" for Bolts

65a7d0d

Sport climbing (bolted climbing)

9d22fb9

move fields to fields property

6ac727d

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tordans added new-preset waiting-ready-to-merge Ready to merge, but let's wait a few days for possible feedback. labels Jun 15, 2025

tordans merged commit eb44b4d into openstreetmap:main Jun 17, 2025
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tordans removed the waiting-ready-to-merge Ready to merge, but let's wait a few days for possible feedback. label Jun 17, 2025

zbycz deleted the climbing-route-bottom branch June 17, 2025 05:35

Add preset for climbing=route_bottom #1590

Add preset for climbing=route_bottom #1590

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zbycz commented Jun 7, 2025 • edited Loading Uh oh! There was an error while loading. Please reload this page.

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Description, Motivation & Context

Preset: Climbing Route Start (climbing=route_bottom)

Linked fields from the preset

Related issues

Links and data

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Add preset for `climbing=route_bottom` #1590

Add preset for `climbing=route_bottom` #1590

zbycz commented Jun 7, 2025 •

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Preset: Climbing Route Start (`climbing=route_bottom`)

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