Dot in Full-width Question Mark of Noto Sans CJK

[starkshaw]

I know this issue here is more like a concern of design... But I submitted this anyway.

From the image above, you can see four lines of four different typefaces in same phrase with a full-width question mark. Those typefaces are Noto Sans CJK SC Regular, Hiragino Sans GB W3, Hanyi Qihei 50S, and PingFang SC Regular, respectively. I customized CSS for many websites in order to prioritize Noto Sans CJK over other CJK fonts, pairing with Helvetica Neue for non-CJK glyphs. In many occasions the dot in the question mark stands out of body text size typeface too much. Please consider to shrink the size of that dot in order to match the thickness of the curve above.

[kenlunde]

But, shouldn't a question mark stand out, to make the fact that the sentence is a question? Of the four lines presented above, the first and last ones seem the best, in terms of readability. The third one doesn't follow CN conventions (it is not left-justified).

[starkshaw]

Hi Dr. Lunde,
I am not very sure about if a question mark should be stand out, but Western sans-serif typefaces I'm seeing on daily basis haven't feature a question mark with larger dot. Yes, it catches my eyes from a paragraph, and I am not sure that is a thing that readers willing to have. Also, in smaller size, I feel the dot is off-centered to the curve, unlike square dot, which cannot be easily mistaken.

[dougfelt]

I agree, in the image above the dot on the question mark seems outsized as compared with the rest of the glyph.

[pauldhunt]

I’ll have a look at this before the next release of Source Han Sans/Noto Sans CJK. In particular, I will be looking at this issue in smaller, text renderings to see if what you are describing is an issue at smaller sizes. I will also get the opinions of the CJK experts on my team. Thanks for sharing your concern.

[marekjez86]

Samples of question marks from China Daily (that's the only Chinese language newspaper I quickly managed to find a PDF of). IMHO, the dots in question marks (but the bold one Sans) are prominent, although maybe not as prominent as we have now (just like dots in commas are big). I'm not Chinese so I'd hesitate to impose Western esthetics on Chinese character set. :-)

[starkshaw]

Hi @marekjez86 Could you send me a link of this PDF? In terms of the dot in the image, first section and last section are in Kaiti font, which is a classic calligraphy typeface originated from Chinese ink brush. You can tell where does the brush start, pushing harder and leaving from the thickness of those strokes. The punctuation marks, which are derived from Western languages, are following that style.

The middle one is in Heiti, a classic sans-serif font like Helvetica. The punctuation marks, I reckon, followed the style from Helvetica too. (Noto Sans CJK is a kind of Heiti)

Here's a screenshot of multiple styles of Heiti

From top to bottom:

• PingFang SC Regular
• Hiragino Sans GB W3
• Noto Sans CJK SC Regular
• Hanyi Qihei 50S
• Sinotype Heiti SC Medium
• Microsoft Yahei Normal (derived from Foundertype Lantinghei)
• Foundertype Youhei 508R
• Foundertype Lantinghei Pro GB18030 Regular
• Helvetica Regular

From a perspective of publication, Sinotype Heiti (and maybe Foundertype Heiti, difference is Foundertype version used a Helvetica-like Western character set) is widely used for few decades. In the most recent ten years, after Microsoft shipped Windows Vista with Microsoft Yahei as the default UI font for Simplified Chinese version, Yahei took over Sinotype Heiti to become a more modern alternative also in books.

I am not judging if those usages are good ideas, I just found that the style may different, but the dot in question marks and exclamation marks are designed oddly similar in terms of their size. (Note that Microsoft Yahei adopted non-standard comma, full stop, and quotation marks, which has been doubted by many designers and users.)

[KrasnayaPloshchad]

In the most recent ten years, after Microsoft shipped Windows Vista with Microsoft Yahei as the default UI font for Simplified Chinese version, Yahei took over Sinotype Heiti to become a more modern alternative also in books.

All Western punctuations in MS Yahei were borrowed from Segoe UI.

[starkshaw]

@KrasnayaPloshchad That is correct but I am not sure what you are trying to say.

[NightFurySL2001]

I agree with this. Please reconsider to shrink the dots for punctuation marks in Noto Sans CJK fonts. It catch the reader's eyes and didn't go well in-line with text.

[davelab6]

Thanks everyone for reporting and discussing this. I believe this is fixed in the latest release of the fonts. Please reopen if that is not the case :)